the tardis main doors

[markofrani]

The pilot episode was recorded on Friday 27 September 1963. I wonder whether Brachacki was already out of the mix when the walls were being constructed. Maybe he had only completed rough drawings or sketches and then Barry Newbery, who was the designer credited in the first story, took over the task of getting them made. However, I do agree that there do seem to be quite a few differences in the finished build when compared to these drawings.

[galacticprobe]

I'm not great at maths, but it looks to me that the roundels are 25" diameter with a 2 inch gap. Where am I going wrong?
Also the vac formed indents are indicated as 3" deep on one cross section, and 5" deep on another...

Across the top (with the exception of the doors) it shows the roundels are 2'0" on center horizontally. If you put a ruler (or dividers/calipers) to those lines and then place them against the edges of the roundel openings at their widest, they seem to match up, making the roundel opening also 2'0".

Going up the sides, it looks like it's 1' 1.5" from the center of the roundel to the center of the spacing between them. (This makes the roundels 2'3" on center vertically.) This would mean that the roundels were closer together going side to side than they were going top to bottom. And this is just going by the measurements on the created graphic, not by how the image looks to the eye. (Crispin is the geometry guy - I got a "D" in Geometry in school - so I'll let him do the math to see what the actual vertical and horizontal separation of the roundels are, if he wants to.)

As for the depth of the roundels, I think we've got more references that show them to be 3 inches deep (the "vac formed" part). They certainly don't drop any further than that 3-inch "rim" around their edges, so that one "5"-inch measure may be a "typo".

And fantastic graphic, by the way! I love it!

Dino.

[mechanoid]

I took a screen grab of the graphic and in photoshop made the scale to fit with 2 feet between the centers of the roundels. Then moved the image so that a complete width roundel was at 0. The width, as you will see is very nearly 25.5 inches and the gap is 1.5 inches, although this is not in the image. Unless I have done something wrong? This also makes the door height at 6 foot 9 and 3/4 inches or 6 foot 10 approx as the plans show. 25.5 + 25.5 + 25.5 + 1.5 + 1.5 + 1.5 + 0.75 = 81.75 inches

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As said by Tony,  the width between the columns where they meet the doors is a different width between the ordinary columns, or so it appears from the grabs. In the meeting with the door they do not overlap, in the other plain wall they overlap. The plan does not show this. A picture says it so much better! I know there are dangers in interpreting and artefacts in these old films but it seems to be so. I Have drawn in a vertical line.

The plans do not show the off set of the doors meeting either!

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[galacticprobe]

Well, when you take into account the line thickness in the graphic and where the roundel starts at the "zero", and place another vertical line (the red one) at about the same place on the other side in relation to the line thickness, I could see maybe 25 1/4 inches:


Going by that, if we put a line at the outer edges of the line thickness on both sides, we would have a roundel that's larger than 25.5 inches. (If a drawing specifies "X number of inches for opening", even though that opening may have been cut to "X" inches, the thickness of the lines in the drawing could make it look like "X" plus a little extra. That's the trouble with analyzing drawings and actual built props so closely: drawings have thicknesses to the lines; the prop's openings don't.)

As we all know with prints, things are not always build to spec. The fact that the door roundels and wall roundels in the set don't overlap as they do in the graphic proves that. It could also have been a question of modifying the doors for strength; having the roundels as close to the edges of the doors as in the print would make for a weaker hinge side, so they perhaps built the doors with the roundels moved inwards a bit more to give more solid area around hinge side.

Dino.

[mechanoid]

My thoughts as well Dino, especially regarding strength. I measured using the middle of the large lines! Your points about the different vertical measurements  - I don't think there is any difference. I think they are consistent with 25.5 and 1.5 gaps, but the lines as drawn are not where they are supposed to be. Some touch the bottom or top and others are in between

[rob49152]

I'm not sure how much faith to put into the plans. There could have been changes from the sketches to the actual production of the sets. Also as for thickness of the lines thats probably my fault. I'll attach a small portion of the plans I as useing so you can see what I was originally working with.

[tony farrell]

Rob,
I have no doubt that you have accurately recreated/reported the plans and appreciate that you must be in a slightly awkward position having promised not to reveal them. Thank you for the trust you have shown us in doing so.
However, I must confess to some doubts: I fully appreciate that things can change between conception and realisation - unexpected difficulties can arise. As Dino has said, having the roundels so close to the doors' edge might lead to a weakness in the structure.
There are two things that cause me real difficulty: Firstly, the date of the plans. My understanding is that the pilot episode was recorded on 23.09.63 and that the transmitted episode was recorded on 18.10.63. This means that the walls must have been constructed before the plans were drawn up. The date you gave for the plans was 18.10.63. The photographic evidence suggests quite a few variations between the plans and what was actually made. If the plans are retrospective, why don't they reflect what was actually built?
Secondly, there is the question of the ratio between the diameter of the roundels and the gap between them. Like Crispin, I am of the opinion that this ratio is very close to 12:1. If the plans are accurate and the roundels are 25.5" in diameter, then the space between them is 2.125". This (allowing for the casters/wainscoting) would make the height of the door opening 85.875" (7' 3") which seems too tall compared to the photographic evidence.
Jonathan (Markofrani) has suggested a figure of 25" (based on the 1" frame shown in the bottom section of the plans). This seems much closer and would make the gap 2.08". In turn, this would make the height of the door opening 84.24 inches.
To my mind however, even this still seems too tall. Have a look at this picture: The Tardis is directly butted up to the Tardis doors. The Police Box doors are 6' 6" and the base is 3" to 4" (total 81", perhaps 82"). Bear in mind that the height of 81" to 82" includes an allowance for the supporting casters, this reduces the height of the doors themselves to somewhere near 78". Given this height, and a ratio of 12:1, the roundels seem to be nearer 24" with a 2" gap. 
Kind Regards
Tony

 

[markofrani]

Tony, I for one now think you are correct, and Purple's original measurement of the internal doors was right all along.
The Time Monster pic clinches it for me.
I'll stick with the 24" roundels, 9" deep with a gap of 2" (apart from around the doors which looks to be around 3")
Phew, thank goodness for that!

[galacticprobe]

Tony, I agree with markofrani, and your eye and head for detail in your post is amazing! As for the door opening (top of door frame to the floor - let's call it the doorframe) being 7'3" high, remember that Pertwee was 6'3" (as was reportedly Tom Baker), and in the pre-Season 14 scenes when they both walk through those doors, the top of the doorframe appears very close to being about one foot above their heads. So the doorframe could still be 7'3".

The doors themselves wouldn't be as tall. We can see they're about 3" above the floor (taking the door height to 7'0"), and at the top of the door there is a gap between the doors and the doorframe that at times looks to be between 1" and 2". This would bring the actual doors' height down to about 6'10", which is what is indicated on Rob's recreated graphic. So having the doors about 4" shorter than the doorframe is possible.

Dino.

[tony farrell]

Thanks for the compliment Dino - you're very kind. I like you term "door frame" - I'll stick to that in future!
With no disrespect to you, take another look at the plans posted by Rob29152 and the small section of the 'original' in the post just above: The height of the door frame is given as 6' 10" approx (floor to top of frame including casters).
Debate is healthy, only in this shall we find truth!
Very Best Wishes
Tony

[galacticprobe]

Tony, no disrespect felt at this end! Yeah, I saw that line going from the floor to the top of the doorframe and wondered about that. At 6'10" it would put the top of the doorframe just 7 inches above both Pertwee's and Tom Baker's heads, and in the photos the top is clearly higher than that above them. I'm starting to wonder, when they drew that line and put that measurement to it, if (like the 5" depth measurement on that one section of the roundel that you noticed) it was a "goof", and a horizontal line should have been drawn at the top and bottom of the actual doors, or a different measurement (like with the "typo" roundel depth) should have been labeled for the doorframe height.

Another possibility is that the doorframe was intended to be 6'10" as in the drawing, but it was built larger for various reasons (probably mostly unknown). Perhaps when they made the hinge side of the doors' space between the edge and the roundel wider (for strength?) than it was in the drawing, it made the doors, and consequently the doorframe, look too wide for its height, so they increased the doorframe height to adjust for that (possibly via larger casters and covering the gaps with wainscoting)? If that was the case, the height measurement might not have been changed on the drawing.

(A similar thing happened with the USS Monitor's turret gun ports. The ports had to be enlarged to fit the guns, but it was never documented on the prints. They found that out when they built the full-scale replica at the Mariners' Museum in Newport News, Virginia; they also had to enlarge the gun ports because they were built to print, and the mock guns wouldn't fit. And since Mariners' used the original prints when they built the replica, they also didn't document the alteration, not even in their own records.)

More possibilities to ponder.

Dino.

[tony farrell]

I'm sorry, but where do we get the idea that both Jon Pertwee and Tom Baker are 6' 3" from?
Jon Pertwee was no taller than 6' 1". I've met Tom Baker and he certainly isn't 6' 3".
The attached photo is from "Planet of the Spiders" and shows Jon just about to step out from the Tardis on to Metebelis 3, but he is still inside the Police Box door frame (so, allowing 3" to 4" for the Police Box base, he is three to four inches above the studio floor). The Police Box doors are 78" tall, the window frame is 15.5" in height and the top of the window frame is 3" below the top of the Police Box doors.
I think we can see that Jon is stood upright and the distance from the top of his head (even with his bouffant hair do) is a good 4" below the top of the Police Box doors.
The photo I posted before from "The Time Monster" shows that the top of the Police Box doors and the top of the Tardis internal door frame are level at 81" to 82" in height.
Jon = 73", the internal Tardis door frame = 82", difference = 11".
Does this help?
Kind Regards
Tony

[DoctorWho8]

For the record, in various literatures, Tom Baker was 6' 3" in his prime.  Jon Pertwee was said to be just under 6' 3" during his time as the Doctor. But factor in shoes/boots, it would make them an inch-inch and a half taller.  But Tom was sometimes listed as 6' 4".
Bill "the Doctor" Rudloff

[tony farrell]

Hi Bill,
Have a look at these - I'm 5' 7 and a 1/2" (5' 8" and a 1/2" in shoes). Okay, Nic Courtney is slightly stooped with age but he's not 6' 3". Compare him with Pertwee in the screen grab from Day of the Daleks and there's hardly any difference in height. Now look at Pertwee in the Police Box from Carnival of Monsters. The Police Box doors are a good 5" inches taller than Mr Pertwee, so Jon cannot be 6' 3". Either that or the Police Box doors are not the height virtually everyone agrees as being i.e., 78".
Best Wishes
Tony

[DoctorWho8]

I asked the internet.  It gave me either 6' 2.5" or 6' 3".  http://www.google.com/search?q=Height+of+Jon+Pertwee&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
Bill "the Doctor" Rudloff